On Devotion.

Relates to THIS post and it's comments


grimmly : .....Of course I would perhaps have got fired from an ashtanga shala too, for arguing that Ashtanga is just asana also and from elsewhere for disagreeing that yoga is a breathing practice (in the Krishnamacharya tradition of asana perhaps but that doesn't mean that yoga per se is) and for disagreeing too with the commonly held belief that yoga is a devotional practice (It's Samkhya, epistemic not theistic - devotional was added later it seems). I think you (Megan) were right the first time, yoga is a meditational practice, everything else is periphery.

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I was talking about Jois' Ashtanga as being 'just' asana, Sharath has himself come out and said it's breath with sound not ujjaii, not pranayama. Personally I've always found Jois' Ashtanga as suiting a meditative approach in the sense of a way of working on concentration, one pointedness, the gaze, the breath with sound, bandhas, they all lend themselves to that. But of course gym yoga can be meditative, reflective too and can bring you to question aspects of your life, as you say it comes down to intention, how you choose to approach your asana.

I'm contrasting it with Vinyasa Krama of course which is an integrative practice, you do your asana followed by pranayama, pratyahara and meditation and you do that from when you first begin to practice that style. I'm not saying one is better than the other, as you know I love and practice both, but VK is perhaps more integrative of the other limbs from the start (probably why it's not so popular).

My point about devotion was that Yoga way back when, was an extension of Samkhya philosophy and was non theistic so non devotional. At some time the ishvara pranidhana sutra seems to have made it's way into Patanajali's Sutras. IF it was there from the beginning and it's a big IF then it was just one meditative option if you were religiously inclined.

Krishnamacharya and Jois were quite...very devotional, but that doesn't mean that yoga HAS to be practiced that way or that devotion... or surrender has to be or necessarily should be a part of ones practice.

Of course this is just one view and the devotional aspect has been part of yoga for the last six to eight hundred years or so.


chris : Devotion and devotional have completely different connotations. I like the loyalty and enthusiasm of devotion but can do without the religious aspect of devotional. I think Laruga says it better than me http://peaceloveyoga.blogspot.com/2011/11/faith-and-reverence.html


grimmly :Yes Laruga writes wonderfully here. There are times when I lean towards devotion, to the practice that is in the sense of dedication. And there is something of the sacred that I bring to that, the same time the same place, I try not to let anything interfere, interrupt ...corrupt that time, that place. I've taken to lighting a candle before practice, to chanting mantras before and after practice (something I never used to do). The space I practice is blocked off from the rest of the house, it's just used for practice, whether asana, pranayama, meditation, chanting through the sutras, I do all that there, in that space (Note to self: must reread Bachelard's Poetics of Space). Have I made it something sacred, something holy or is it just respect for the practice, for the discipline, creating rituals perhaps to help with motivation (although that's something I've never had a problem with so why do I do it?).

I can see the place of devotion of reverence of the sacred but they also worry me too. Often they can come at the expense of a questioning attitude, devotion almost excludes it, can you question that which your devoted too... Job tried and Kierkegaard tries to understand why Abraham didn't.

Devotion as dedication? I don't know. that just seems like devotion lite.

I'm aware that the questioning attitude I have excludes me from many of the pleasures of the practice but there's so much that should be questioned, the korunta, the idea that the practice, this practice we do is thousands of years old, that there exists a lineage rather than just a style, that it's unchanging, that the deification of krishna was in the original Gita or Mahabharata or Ishvarha in the original yoga sutras, whether Yoga in it's original conception was a secular, non theistic, epistemic questioning attitude. And also whether, however much I respect my teachers teacher Krishnamacharya (and Jois too), whether the devotional aspect he (they) brought to the practice was misleading, a misrepresentation of yoga. How can you question all that your are when you carry the baggage of your devotion, of something that can not, must not be questioned.

And that questioning is in the yoga sutras, it's in buddhism, question your teachers, question what they say, putting it to the test of own experience.

but not while your on the mat an cushion...that times..sacred.